tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6888282.post8579601265745340667..comments2024-03-07T00:03:12.584-07:00Comments on John's Corner of the World: A direct (indirect) statement from Kevin Swanson about CHEC's perspective on SonlightJohn Holzmannhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14849211055450293089noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6888282.post-71030624875984090662009-02-07T22:22:00.000-07:002009-02-07T22:22:00.000-07:00Dear John,As this is a rather in-depth question, a...Dear John,<BR/><BR/>As this is a rather in-depth question, and as I'm a long-term Sonlighter and also a long-term CHEC convention attender, I've sent you a private message on the forums giving my thoughts on the issue.<BR/><BR/>What I will say here is this:<BR/><BR/>I think what CHEC has done to SL is a travesty. It's a terrible witness to those, at SL and here on your blog, who don't yet know Christ. It's also horribly judgmental and divisive to the Body of Christ. (Of course they have every right to choose whomever they wish to attend their conference, but the way they went about this was just wrong.) I am grieved to see those who claim to represent Christ act like this, and I plan to write them about it.<BR/><BR/>Secondly, I do think SL could do better in helping parents and students develop a godly perspective and worldview on the material they study. The answer, to my way of thinking, is not to use only Christian books, as they recommend; rather, the answer must be to really deal with the issues raised by books with an erroneous worldview. If you're going to use a book, you ought to be able to show how that book (or the discussion of it) contributes to your primary goals as a Christian curriculum. And while you may have some books that are "just for fun," I would think the majority of your books ought to lead in one way or another to your primary goals. (Doesn't that seem reasonable? We do, after all, have limited time with our children, and much to accomplish.)<BR/><BR/>Of course, one of your primary goals may be something like, "To strengthen relationships within families through the sharing and discussion of positive, quality literature" - and a lot of SL's books fall into just such a category. <BR/><BR/>I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you're going to use a book that's not from a Christian worldview, it's important to be able to relate that book to one of your primary goals. And if one of your goals is that students will struggle with the worldview presented in a book, you ought to provide plenty of help to parents in leading discussions of those books - enough help that no - and I mean NO - child or teen whose parents use your curriculum as intended can be led astray by them.<BR/><BR/>Thus: when reading a book that is positive about Buddhism, no Christian parent should have to see their child become a Buddhist - even if it's "only" for three weeks. When reading a book from a Catholic worldview, Protestant parents should have plenty of help with how to counter that so that neither they nor their child ends up a Catholic. And so on. If SL isn't able or willing to provide that kind of help to parents on any given book, it seems to me that book doesn't belong in your catalog.<BR/><BR/>I've said much more in my private message, including discussing some specific issues that have caused me difficulty. I've also expressed, repeatedly and clearly, how much I love SL and appreciate all you've done. I most definitely DON'T believe you need to change your basic philosophy; I DO think SL would be even better if you could provide more guidance for parents in leading discussions of difficult books. (And if you haven't already done so, I think you should also consider every book in terms of how it contributes to your overall goals, especially to "the purpose and direction of education," as you mention above.)<BR/><BR/>I really do respect your willingness to listen to the positions of others. I'm convinced that kind of humility can only lead to SL's becoming even better than it already is. :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6888282.post-56694430984762109192009-02-05T21:59:00.000-07:002009-02-05T21:59:00.000-07:00Well-said, John! Good perspective.Concerning your ...Well-said, John! Good perspective.<BR/><BR/>Concerning your final comment about CHEC having (or, in this case, not having) any moral obligation to support Sonlight's curriculum: you are absolutely correct.<BR/><BR/>It is strange, however--and this is something I have begun to think about more deeply: I think there may be a call for a "new" organization to fulfill the broader advocacy and promotion work that Christian Home Educators of Colorado once did but seems less and less oriented to doing today. Depending on the answers to <A HREF="http://johnscorner.blogspot.com/2009/01/are-you-being-treated-like-child-who.html" REL="nofollow">my original question about homeschool organizations around the country</A>, there may be a need for "new" organizations in many other states as well.John Holzmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14849211055450293089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6888282.post-39750069739650902302009-02-05T19:49:00.000-07:002009-02-05T19:49:00.000-07:00I was given a link to this blog and a short explan...I was given a link to this blog and a short explanation of these events by a friend. I don’t know a bunch about Sonlight so I could be misunderstanding these posts, though we used it for a while and use its reading list for family reading books from time to time.<BR/><BR/>I think the larger question is more complicated than what I read from either Kevin, John or the commentators on this blog. I don’t think it is wrong for us to use Non-Christian books, but I do think it requires a great amount of discernment, even for adults. I say this as someone who went through 10 years in a very hostile secular philosophy department. What we take in affects us and has a profound impact on our lives, both day to day and long term. Many times it enters our thinking in ways that we don’t even fully grasp until they are pointed out to us later. While I don’t believe we should be ignorant or hide from the world, I think we should bear in mind that corruption is contagious and righteousness isn’t. (Haggai 2:11-14) <BR/><BR/>First off, how many Christian parents really have a Biblical world view and understand it well enough to defend it against the attacks of the enemy? From my personal experience, I suspect that the percentage is relatively low. It seems to me that your initial focus must be on laying the foundations of a Christian worldview; memorization of Scripture, developing a comprehensive understanding of how individual texts fit together into a consistent theological whole and ensuring that you are willing to suffer or give up anything to serve Him. Obviously this can’t be done entirely as a pre-requisite. Obviously we will fail to live up to this standard, but the major foundation needs to be in place, at least with the parents, before the rest is undertaken.<BR/><BR/>Modernism and Humanism were able to take over the major denominations in the US in the early 1900’s because their disciples were able to capture the Seminaries in the late 1800’s. Many denominations required their pastors to go through a period in secular university before they could attend Seminary. Smart pastors need a Classical Education, you know. With the advent of the higher critical movement in Germany and the release of the Origin of the Species internationally, huge numbers of these prospective pastors became liberals, modernists or gave up the faith all together. As these men gained teaching positions in the Seminaries, all but a handful of these Seminaries ceased to be Christian at all.<BR/><BR/>Even great Christian intellectuals like Gresham Machen, who almost single-handily stood against the modernists in the Northern Presbyterian Church as it fell, had his faith shaken to the point of abandoning it after his study in Germany. He at least was honest and refused to be ordained at Princeton for eight years after he joined the faculty there because he didn’t think he was a Christian, most who followed this course weren’t so scrupulous. <BR/><BR/>No man has the right to worship any God but the Lord. If this is the case, then we have no obligation to defend the supposed “rights” of someone trying to build a kingdom other than His or even to build His kingdom using means other than the ones He prescribed (raise up your children in the fear and admonition of the Lord). <BR/><BR/>In the case at hand, I can sympathize with what Sonlight wants to do on several levels; All truth ultimately is God’s truth, I do want my kids to understand what is being taught in the world at large, and Christian authors don’t always represent the highest standards in any discipline. I also see some of the failings with Kevin Swanson’s approach. None the less, I don’t see that CHEC has any moral obligation to support Sonlight's curriculum, and given the way that the arguments have been framed I can see a pretty strong case for why they would not see it as prudent to do so.<BR/><BR/>John Thomas<BR/>Denver Colorado<BR/>John-thomas@earthlink.netJohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06192094183224958641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6888282.post-54115081942788888752009-02-05T16:25:00.000-07:002009-02-05T16:25:00.000-07:00We use Sonlight's reading lists (and have for year...We use Sonlight's reading lists (and have for years) with our children. Our family loves you John, and appreciates your openness concerning education. Keep up the good work, Sonlight.<BR/><BR/>Shame on CHEC.Freedom from Tyrannyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12745631303370224675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6888282.post-44592456596182854742009-02-05T15:28:00.000-07:002009-02-05T15:28:00.000-07:00A brief addendum ...I think, as you note, there is...A brief addendum ...<BR/><BR/>I think, as you note, there is an underlying difference of approach to education that has resulted in some polarization regarding Christian approaches to homeschooling. These differences may be likened to differences in how Christians relate to science or even the world.<BR/> <BR/>For instance, are science and Christianity enemies, friends, strangers, associates, or what? Similarly, what is the relationship between Christianity and education? Underlying any Christian homeschool approach is some sort of theology/philosophy, whether it is admitted or not, well thought out or not, consistent or not.<BR/> <BR/>In some ways I see the polarization as akin to the different approaches among the branches of Christian apologetics (broadly, Classical, Evidentialist, Presuppositional, and Fideistic). All are Christian and all are trying to in some way defend the faith, but there is quite a bit of divergence and variety in how they do so.Robert Velardehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665635776181855486noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6888282.post-38431774751284634932009-02-05T12:52:00.000-07:002009-02-05T12:52:00.000-07:00Paul did not repent for studying Greek philosophy,...Paul did not repent for studying Greek philosophy, at least not when it came to incorporating or using some of its ideas positively (see Acts 17, for instance). Neither did Augustine or Aquinas. Instead, they wisely utilized or incorporated ideas into their case for Christianity, without compromising the gospel message.<BR/><BR/>Whether one agrees with his rather complex endeavors or not, Alvin Plantinga, will by most accounts be remembered as one of the top philosophers of the 20th century, almost single-handedly ("mindedly"?) restoring Christianity to a position of academic respect rather than ridicule. He did not accomplish this by "repenting" of his study of secular philosophy, but by using his God-given intellect to engage non-Christian ideas.<BR/><BR/>I'm convinced that what helped great Christian thinkers of the past - and today - engage the world successfully was in part driven by their broad knowledge base. They took God's command to love Him with heart, soul, strength, and mind seriously.<BR/><BR/>If anything, contemporary Western Christianity has largely gone the way of anti-intellectualism, much to its detriment. There's a tendency to either embrace culture uncritically, ignore it unashamedly, but rarely engage it intelligently. I see Sonlight as doing the latter - helping parents and children understand the Christian worldview, while at the same time preparing individuals to change the world for the glory of God. In my assessment, this can't succeed unless there is understanding of the ideas that make up our world.<BR/><BR/>We are not to be prideful, but rather are to engage the world and its ideas "with gentleness and respect" (1 Peter 3:15). But I see no foundational need to repent of the Sonlight approach to education or its philosophy of education. This, of course, does not excuse us from examining ourselves in reference to personal repentance, but that's another matter.Robert Velardehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665635776181855486noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6888282.post-66889147754453212532009-02-05T10:59:00.000-07:002009-02-05T10:59:00.000-07:00After many years of homeschooling--most of them wi...After many years of homeschooling--most of them with Sonlight admittedly--and going to every CHEC conference in the last 10 years, I have definitely heard both sides. As a lawyer and a person raised in the secular world who now desperately desires to follow God's Word and raise my children to love Him, I have to say I agree with Sonlight's, not CHEC's logic here. I would rather read and discuss secular literature with my children now while we homeschool than allow a college professor to authoritatively give them their version later. Plus, some of the greatest literature of all time was not written by Christians. Do we simply skip those books and deprive our children of 1) a great story; 2) thought provoking ideas; or 3) a basis for many of the ideas that permeate our world? (And I'm not talking about Harry Potter or such, I'm referring to classic literature!) I believe God wants us to be thinking, interacting believers reaching out to our culture and/or the world. It's EASIER to simply accept what other Christians tell us about evolution or politics, etc, but I believe that's a cop out. God gave each of us reason and logic and His Word. I believe He expects each of us to use those gifts confidently and without constant fear of the world.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6888282.post-54869336167227035852009-02-05T10:48:00.000-07:002009-02-05T10:48:00.000-07:00John, I haven't listened to the recording, nor...John, I haven't listened to the recording, nor will I probably. But reading your comments about it reminded me of a book that is somewhere in our home. <BR/><BR/>The Pattern of God's Truth, by Frank Gabelein (http://www.amazon.com/Pattern-Gods-Truth-Integration-Christian/dp/0802464505/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233855740&sr=8-1). <BR/><BR/>We worked at The Stony Brook School in NY which is a boarding school that was led under Gabelein for it beginning and foundational years. The weaving of Christian world-view with excellence in learning and all truth in that community setting still impacts us, even though we have moved on.<BR/>I believe that our experience there has largely influenced our experience and enjoyment of Sonlight.<BR/><BR/>Hope it is a good read for you.<BR/><BR/>God speed.<BR/>Emily PitmanEmilyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17680536202032513021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6888282.post-21222242434488819442009-02-05T10:19:00.000-07:002009-02-05T10:19:00.000-07:00Oh my goodness! Watch out for proud, sarcastic, ps...Oh my goodness! Watch out for proud, sarcastic, pseudointellectuals...do they listen to their own broadcasts? He is the one using Greek to show us how smart he is, and "metaphysic" to show us how much philososhy he knows.This one broadcast alone...drips with sarcasm. Humility? I am praying for Kevin.<BR/><BR/>John, let the Holy Spirit convict you of anything you may need to change in your curriculum...and His name is NOT Kevin. I for one, will be purchasing Sonlight for my daughter's curriculum next year!Thanks for your honesty and forthrightness. Kevin could learn so much from you!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6888282.post-80194340624868480222009-02-05T10:02:00.000-07:002009-02-05T10:02:00.000-07:00I could almost weep when I read this. Those poor,...I could almost weep when I read this. Those poor, poor children who are raised in this sort of educational system. What sort of future is there for them? It sounds very nice – everything (or almost everything) they read should be from a Christian point of view. That works fairly easily when you are a small child and it is natural for your parents to supply your reading material. However, what happens when you grow up? Let’s say I was to educate my son this way. What would happen when he became an adult? I can envision three possibilities (though I am more than welcome to listen to another option that I’m missing.)<BR/><BR/>Situation 1 – My child might never read or listen to anything again. Obviously that is not remotely realistic.<BR/><BR/>Situation 2 – I could make sure that everything he read comes from a (my approved) Christian point of view. However, for how long should that continue? Until he is a specific age, at which point we would shift to situation 3? Up until I die? ‘Til my eyes give out and I can’t approve anything anymore? I’m not trying to be sarcastic here, but to explore the practicalities – which don’t really seem to be here. Wait, just as I am typing I remembered that there are companies that seem to aim to supply us with “approved Christian” material? I do believe Vi*ion Fo*um has started just such a company. However, outside these “helpful” companies, it would seem like we would need to work really hard to isolate ourselves from others – and that would make it rather hard to share the gospel. It’s very unlikely a person will be able to live a life consistently sharing Christ with those who need to hear about him and not be challenged with opposing viewpoints.<BR/><BR/>Situation 3 – And realistically, the most practical one. My son would reach a point when he would be reading and listening to things that one of his parents (or other acceptable source) had not pre-approved. While I feel that Situation 2 goes against all the Bible teaches about sharing the gospel with others, I don’t like this option either. Somewhere along the line he would encounter intelligent, articulate people speaking up on behalf of a belief our family didn’t share. On the one hand, I don’t want him to blindly accept what we say – and reject what others say – just because we said so. I want him to be able to think for himself and own his on beliefs. Yet, on the other hand, how will he know how to interpret what he reads / hears and defend his personal beliefs if he hasn’t had years of training in doing so? I don’t want him to be able to be swept away by the first logical-sounding argument – which he very well could be if he’s never developed the skill of reading those who believe differently. I’ve seen this happen. It is this very preparation for battle – within the safe waters of the home – that made me fall in love with Sonlight the first time I read through its Reasons You May Not Want to Use Sonlight.<BR/><BR/>I WANT my children to know how to recognize and respond to material where a Christian (or, more specifically my Christian – since there are lots of people who label themselves Christian that don’t share my view of many things) world view does not permeate. Thank you so much for creating Sonlight!Garnethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01003993647042775483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6888282.post-46859556958441177872009-02-05T07:37:00.000-07:002009-02-05T07:37:00.000-07:00Hi John, I think the issue here is much more compl...Hi John, I think the issue here is much more complicated than simply ensuring that our children only learn from textbooks written by Christians. That seems a bit naive.<BR/><BR/>Certainly it is important to teach all subjects from within a Christian worldview, but this needn't preclude the use of texts written by secular experts.<BR/><BR/>For instance, let's say that a group of non-Christian Nobel-Prize winning scientists found a problem with the standard cosmological model. Let's say they found hard evidence that the universe was recently created, or something undeniable that objectively disproves the theory of evolution.<BR/><BR/>Do you think that CHEC would not endorse such a book, even though it was authored by non-Christians?<BR/><BR/>Now let us suppose that Keith Miller, Fancis Collins, and the Haarsma's author a general science text that shows God working through ordinary means, such as the big bang and evolution, to bring about His creative will. They teach that billions of years of death preceed man and sin, and that Adam and Eve might not have been historical figures. <BR/><BR/>Will CHEC endorse this book, clearly written by Christians?<BR/><BR/>I don't claim to know the answers to these questions, but I have a feeling that many homeschoolers would feel comfortable recommending the first text, but they wouldn't touch the second book with a 10 ft pole. So the issue here is much deeper than simply, "Books written by Christians". <BR/><BR/>There is something to be said for recognizing "subject matter experts" -- even when those experts do not claim to present their material from within a distinctively Christian worldview.<BR/><BR/>Isn't that the world we are training our Chrildren to confront? Will our Christian kids always go to Christian Colleges, work for Christian coroporations and have Christian bosses? No! They will need to respect those in authority, including those who are authorities in their respective academic or professional fields, regardless of worldview. Part of the education experience is learning how to descern and relate to other worldviews. <BR/><BR/>By using texts written by subject matter experts with various worldviews, we can teach our children to identify and descern underlying philosophies. We can teach them liberate God's truth from secular baggage, and recast these truths with reference to the Christian worldview.<BR/><BR/>Keep up the great work!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com